Stephen Hinch, the author of Winning through Innovation

Alright. Welcome back to another episode of Modern Cyber. As usual. I'm your host, Jeremy, and I'm very excited to be coming to you today with another conversation that is, again, a little bit off the beaten path. And I know we've done a few of these recently, but I do think they're really important conversations to have because we can talk about the technologies.

We can talk about the platforms all we want. But if we don't get our mindsets and our processes right, sometimes all of that is lost. And so to that end, I'm delighted to be joined today by somebody who is an experienced senior executive, an award winning author, and a recognized innovator in the high-tech industry, and that is Stephen Hinch. Stephen has decades of management experience at companies like HP, Agilent, TeamLogic IT, and has played a pivotal role in advancing surface mount and fiber optic technologies. He's authored five books, including the IBPA Benjamin Franklin award winning the Slickrock Desert.

I wanna hear more about that if we have time. And his latest title, winning through innovation lessons from the front lines of business, another topic I definitely wanna get into in today's conversation. Steve now serves as a consultant to senior executives in high-tech and continues to shape industry standards and innovation. He holds a bachelor's of science and master's of engineering degrees from Harvey Mudd College and a master of arts master's of arts degree in engineering. It's funny.

Master's arts engineering. You don't think those three things go together. But from Claremont Graduate College, Steve holds three patents and has authored over 20 technical papers, books. I could go on, but I think the best thing to do is to say, Steve, thank you so much for making the time to join us on Modern Cyber today. Well, thank you, Jeremy.

I, really appreciate you inviting me here. My pleasure. My pleasure. I I wanna dive right into the heart of part of the conversation, and that is really the mindset. Because I know mindset is something that you've spent some time thinking about, researching, talking to leaders about.

And I guess the first question about mindset is, first, how do you frame an organizational mindset? What does that mean to you? Well, so think about, the biggest challenges in cybersecurity today. One example is, you know, business email compromise. Right.

And, you know, you can no longer just expect that the, hackers are gonna send you something that has bad English and doesn't have good spelling. They use AI now to, send you emails that look as good as if they came from your CEO. So the mindset has changed. It used to be, yeah, if I get this junk email, I know I can get rid of it. But now you can't depend on that.

You really have to understand what it is that's going on today and be more aware of what you need to do to protect yourself, against all these these extended threats. So, and then, you know, another part of the mindset is malicious insiders is Mhmm. You've gotta keep in mind that that, all of the threats that you get exposed to aren't gonna come from outside your organization. And this is particularly true, you know, big companies like Google. Employees come in one day and find out they're locked out of all of their their systems because they've been terminated, and that's a terrible way to find out about that you no longer have a job.

But, the the company has to worry about if they tell you you're fired and you still have access to, to the the internal systems, sometimes things bad bad things are gonna happen. And so Yeah. They're gonna have to, protect themselves from that. And it's particularly a concern for companies that have not done a very good job of treating their employees in the first place. So the mindset, you know, expands beyond just, do I have the right, cybersecurity software installed?

It's really more about where do all the threats come from and what actions do we have to take to protect against them. Yeah. And I think that's something that is not always appreciated, especially two aspects of it. One is threats change over time. And so having, like, a learning and an open mindset towards, like, what I'm doing today may not be sufficient for what ends up happening tomorrow and needing them to adapt to new situations is something that I think a lot of organizations aren't that good at.

And number two is something that I'd love to get your your thoughts around, which is that, you know, a lot of organizations to your point about business email compromise, it is still one of the top threats to most organizations is is, you know, the person who clicks on the bad link or who opens the email, which, like you say, might look way better now than it did three years ago, is that, we tend to go through these annual check the box training exercises, and everybody gets a a kind of an annual cybersecurity awareness training or whatnot. And my my experience is that people largely kind of tune these out after some pure point in time. You know? Maybe the first year you're like, oh, okay. And then the second year, we're like, oh, shoot.

I just gotta get this done. And then you go through it. And then by the third year, you're like, how quickly can I just get this over with? And so how do you think about, let's say, encouraging, whether it's leaders or employees to stay engaged and to not get complacent. Yeah.

And you made a good point there is it starts with the leaders. If the leaders feel like I've got to check this box to say we've done the cybersecurity, training for this year, and then I'm done and I can worry about something else till next year, that's not gonna work. And if employees see that's how the leaders treat it, they're not gonna treat it any differently. So the the first thing you have to understand, you know, we talk about the idea of checklists and training. A checklist doesn't last very long before it needs to be updated.

Right. So, if if it's you know, we put together the checklist, and we need to make sure we've got the right firewall, and we've got all of the patches installed and and, but things change. You know, firewalls that were fine, a few years ago aren't good anymore. If you don't have a next generation firewall, you're not being adequately protected. Same way, multifactor authentication.

Five years ago, nobody used it. And now it's table stakes. So those checklists are for what you need to do to to stay cybersecurity aware of change, and you need to establish, responsibilities among your leadership team as who's responsible for maintaining the checklist. Checklists, you have to have checklists, in my opinion. But Yeah.

But the checklist is just a way to assure that you're delivering the security issues addressing the security issues that you you need to maintain. So, you know, that that idea of a compliance checklist is something that I don't know how to get around it, but it's not something that you just leave in place for a for a year. But that doesn't mean you have to do training of everybody every month. But, know, there'll be a few new things that come up, and, you need to be prepared to do very focused training in certain areas very quick. And maybe it's just, you know, here's twenty minutes worth of the latest things that you need to worry about, or here's an example of another company that got hacked.

That kind of keeping it aware, on a much more regular basis, but not making it this big gigantic thing that you do over and over again every month, is is the way I see that you need to keep it at the forefront of everybody's mind. Yeah. But there's something that goes along with that that I think is is something I'd love to see if you have any insight on. Because one of the things is that, like, along the same lines of of people getting complacent, it's a fact that companies can get complacent too. And they can get complacent with, like, let's say, their position in the market.

So if you're working with, like, a leading organization, and I think it's fair to say that, you know, you spent some time at Hewlett Packard. And for many years, Hewlett Packard was very much a leading organization. And and I might argue that they're not really a leading organization in in too many fronts these days anymore. But, like, how do you prevent an organization from getting complacent? Again, that starts at the top.

If if the c suite doesn't treat this as, an important part of their responsibility, nobody else is gonna do it either. People pay attention to what the the leaders pay attention to, and that's what they focus on. Now my recent experience is more in the small business side of things. You know, I I spent thirty five years at Hewlett Packard and and Agilent Technologies. And and by the way, the actual Hewlett Packard doesn't exist anymore.

It's split into several companies. But, but it's still, you know, that I I would agree with your, your assessment that, the the HP Incorporated or the HP enterprise no longer is the leader that they they used to be. But in the small business side of things, I see a lot of owners of of companies. This could be a 10 person company or a 50 person company. They still feel like they are too small to be the target, of the malicious outsiders, and Yeah.

That's that's not true anymore. But but Right. You know, they don't feel like I I mean, I still see some come, companies that think they can still use Windows seven computers. And they've got firewalls that are ten years old that aren't gonna do anything to protect, and they don't really put attention on things. And it's, again, it's a mindset that starts at the top, and the only thing that will change things for some people is they get hacked.

And if they don't go out of business because they've lost millions of dollars, they might actually change their attitude. But, you know, for the last ten years where I've been focusing on supporting IT systems for small companies, that's the biggest thing that I've had to train a lot of people on is you can't think that you're too small to worry about. Yeah. You've gotta spend as much or more now on IT support and cybersecurity than than you did, a few years ago. And it's gotta be completely updated.

Yeah. And I I tell people all the time, you know, it's a line that I use, you know, and it kind of comes out half joking, but I am absolutely serious about it. It's like, all the things that you think your organization has access to, threat actors have access to as well. Threat actors have cloud. Threat actors have automation.

Threat actors have access to open source. Threat actors have access to AI models. Now they might use stolen credit cards to access those things, but they do have access to them. And so to your point, in the organization that's like, oh, well, I'm so small. Nobody's ever gonna bother to look at us.

Well, nobody is looking at you maybe. Nobody is specifically spending their time to research to find, oh, it's Steve Hinch's small medium business that I'm really interested in. No. They're using automation to find anybody out there, and then they find some organization that happens to be yours that has an outdated firewall or a vulnerability that it's that's exposed to the Internet or whatever the case may be. So I wanna pivot off of that to this, you know, the last ten years of experience that you've had working with small businesses on their IT and on on, let's say, some of their innovation and platforms.

You made a comment to me that there are kind of, I think, three, top cybersecurity blind spots for SMBs today. What are those, and and how do you think about them? Well, I we might have mentioned this already a little bit, but I think number one is poor password management and not using multifactor authentication. And, I mean, that's still I mean, people reuse passwords all the time. Small companies the the companies that we support, we tend to not support them if they don't agree to take basic steps like using MFA where they can.

And I'd be interested in your thoughts on passkeys being a potential way to, address some of these threats from password security. Yeah. We we love them. We do, use them. And and in fact, we if possible, if a vendor that we work with supports them, we generally want to be using them, and we encourage our employees to use them.

We're a little bit particular. We we're a cybersecurity company, and so we're very cyber conscious. And so for instance, for us, the way that we think about, passwords as an organization is that we started with a password manager from the point of time that we had two employees in the company. And as we've onboarded new employees and, you know, like a lot of solutions that we look at it, an additional, I don't know, dollars 10 per user per month or $8 per user per month or whatever the cost is. The flip side of that cost is way, way worse.

And the flip side of the, you know, let's say, the breach or the compromised employee credential or whatever the case may be is way worse. So we're very particular about, let's say, the vendors that we partner with and making sure that they either have support for multifactor authentication. And if so, we always require that and turn that on. Mhmm. Or we use single sign on, with federated identities, or we use pass keys.

What we like about pass keys, I will tell you, is that, generally speaking, in order to use a pass key, it requires some kind of biometric, authentication on the device that the pass key is stored on to unlock access to the key. And so that gives a nice layer of protection from my perspective as as the CEO of the company where I can look at that and I can be like, oh, okay. I absolutely know that this was my coworker, Timo, because on his device, it required his, you know, face ID or his thumbprint or whatever it was to unlock the passcode to get him access to whatever system that we're using. So we're fans in general, but we're, again, we're a little bit self selectively particular in in how we think about password management. Yep.

Okay. Good. Well, you'd asked about three things. That was the first one. Okay.

Second one, and I think this focuses on the small business side of things. I would hope that it's not nearly as big a concern for for the, HP size, is, not keeping patches up to date. And it's not just patches on your laptop or desktop, or your server. It's also the network equipment, you know, firewalls, and and even switches, needs security updates, fairly regularly. And too many small companies don't pay attention to that.

It's it's one of the main reasons why, you know, I've worked with TeamLogic IT for the last ten years, and we provide, IT support for small companies that don't know how to do it themselves. And that's one of the the key things. I mean, there are all sorts of things that we do to make sure their network is up to date, but but keeping patches up to date is one of the key things. Now that doesn't mean that you apply the patch on the Wednesday after the the the Microsoft patch Tuesday comes out. We sometimes, especially for servers, will wait for maybe a month unless it's something that we know is really severely, critical to get patched updated right away.

But, but but so keeping patches up to date in all your network equipment, not just the servers and the the computers is is, what I would see number three. And the third thing, I guess, I would say is not replacing hardware that is obsolete. And I've already mentioned the the the firewalls, Windows seven. We've had customers that refused to update their servers from Windows Server '20 ten. And, stuff is not being supported anymore, and we pretty much refuse to support small businesses that don't take basic measures to keep their networks up to date, with things like that.

And so those are three things that, especially on the small business side of things, we deal with regularly. Yeah. Look. We talked about the password aspect already, but I have strong thoughts about items two and three as well from my own experience. You know, On, here on modern cyber, we've done a recent breach series where people come on and they talk about the worst breach that they've ever experienced and, you know, to the extent that they can and are willing to, etcetera.

And I kicked off that series sharing my own worst breach ever, and it was because of obsolete hardware that was no longer getting patches. And in my case, this dating myself a little bit, but what it was a Windows n t three dot five server, from roughly 1996 time frame, but we were still using it in twenty two thousand one or two. And we were using it because it still ran. Yeah. And we had a use case for a dumb server that didn't have a ton of processing power but could exchange disks.

But what we didn't think about was, oh, well, there's some very obscure vulnerability in the Windows three dot five operating system. And by the way, we couldn't even update to Windows n t four, because of the hardware architecture, the processor architecture of the heart of the, server. And we left that thing running until we absolutely got breached, and we've had to learn our lesson the hard way. And so to your point, you know, obsolete hardware, all the problems that come with it around no patch available, no longer supported, end of life. I mean, end of life really people think about it and they're like, oh, okay.

Well, it's not supported anymore. So end of life just means we run it until it dies, but that absolutely comes with a whole handful of risks that you have to take with that. And there's another aspect of that that we've had to deal with in the past is companies say, we can't update it because we use this application that doesn't run on anything newer than than, Windows Server '20 ten. And, well, maybe it's time to look at replacing that with something else. You you know?

Yeah. Word star doesn't run anymore. Yeah. It's the word star. Wow.

Throwback there. But on the vulnerability side, this is another area that I I I have very strong thoughts about. And especially for SMBs, I find that, like, you know, if I look at a lot of SMBs nowadays, I I tend to think of them as being organizations that many of them, if they're started in the last, let's say, decade or so, they don't have a ton of their own infrastructure anymore. Right? They're using a lot of cloud based solutions and a lot of third party software as a service and things like that.

So when you think about what they're actually, what they actually have as a hardware footprint or as, let's say, operating system footprint that they need to manage, you might be down to, like, one laptop per employee or maybe you're, you know, down to a laptop per employee plus some network Wi Fi device or something small like that. It's not first of all, it's not a ton of stuff that you have to manage and patch. You know, in in days when I was a hands on keyboard practitioner, I had racks of servers that I would have had to think about patching. And so, you know, patches were somewhat intrusive. The other thing that I think about is that I think patches generally today and and, you know, I take your guidance around, like, not necessarily patching every server immediately.

But I think the risk of incompatibility is far lower today than it was twenty years ago. You know, when a patch might break a particular application or cause a particular version of an operating system with some certain configuration did not come back online or some database server that didn't work anymore or so on. First of all, you're not running a lot of that infrastructure, like I said. Mhmm. But second of all, those risks are just way lower today than they were twenty years ago.

I would agree with that mostly. Okay. We had a, just within the last year, a a big problem with, a patch that Microsoft rolled out on servers. And I don't remember all the details of it, but we had to actually roll back as bunch of stuff because it broke things across the whole TeamLogic IT network. And, so it's it's not completely gone, but, it I agree with this a lot better than it it used to be.

So yeah. Understood. Yeah. It's just the kind of thing where I think, you know, especially especially at the laptop level, operating system patches, you know, you you can run we we tend not to use a lot of, Windows devices within Firetail, but we, you know, encourage our employees on a regular basis. We have a couple people who kinda monitor the patches coming out from Apple and then give a recommendation or a nudge to the rest of the team.

Hey. Time to update your macOS. Hey. Time to update this piece of software, that piece of software, and whatnot. So I wanna change gears for a minute and talk about, your books because you've been writing books now for a while.

And if I saw right, I think you've got eight books out. No. Five books. Five. Well, it depends on how you count them because Okay.

One of them is in the second edition and one of them is in the third edition. Okay. But they cover two different completely, spectrum of you know? I Well, and that's exactly what I was gonna ask about. Yeah.

I write books on books for the the high-tech industry. My very first book was a handbook of surface mount technology, which was written at the time that surface mount technology was just coming into to the mainstream. And, so mine was really the first book that gave engineers what they needed to know about this new technology. And then I've I've got sort of a second life outside of the high-tech industry. I like to get out and explore remote regions of the outdoors.

And because of my high-tech career, I needed an excuse to get out, to Utah or or various places in, in the remote distance. And so I told my wife I was gonna write a book about the, the Canyon Country of Southern Utah. And in order for me to do that, I have to get out there more often. So I'll see you in a week. Okay.

And so, actually, I don't know whether you can see the picture behind me is, on the cover of my Slickrock Desert book. That's, a, an ancestral Pueblo, ruin out in the, Cedar Mesa area of Southern Utah. I love that area. And, you know, I get out to other desert locations as well, but but that's one of my favorites. And then the other couple of books I've written out, one is for hikers and backpackers who wanna learn how to navigate in the wilderness using map, compass, and GPS.

And I've written a guidebook to, some of the state parks in Northern California. But again, those are not to to make a ton of money. Those are just because I need an excuse to get out and enjoy those areas. K. Well, I'm curious about something because, you know, I think a couple people in our audience, myself included, are people who have thought about writing a book.

So how first, how did you make the initial decision aside from, you know, coming up with the excuse of why you needed to get out there? But when you decided, hey, I'm gonna write a book, how did you organize your your own thoughts around the process? So let's talk about my first book because that was what really got into me. So until I got my first laptop computer and used a word processor, I hated writing because I had to write on a on a pad of paper and my hand would get cramped after just a few paragraphs. So I never even thought about writing a book until I I got my first, computer and could do word processing.

And then I worked for a, manager at HP who had written a book on printed circuit technology, and and, he was doing an update to that book. And he said, hey, Steve. Can you write a chapter on surface mount technology? And that was my job at the time for him is to advance surface mount technology in HP. So I said, sure.

And I found that I loved writing that chapter, and I knew a lot more about surface mount technology than I could cover in a chapter. And so I figured, well, let me try writing a book, and I, it's it took three years. I promised the publisher I would have it done in two years. It took three years, but they were happy to have it. And, fortunately, it was related to the work that I was doing for HP, and so it was pretty straightforward to do that.

After that, I didn't write anything for another ten years because I didn't I didn't have time and I didn't know what to write about. But, again, this is where I know how to write a book. I've done one already, and I wanna get out and explore the wilderness, so I'll use that as my excuse. And it was really not much more thought. I didn't go through much of a thought process more than that.

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. What did what did you learn along the way in terms of writing? Let's let's think of that first one.

There must have been some lessons learned around, like, oh, I should have structured this slightly differently or I should have edited sooner or or any lessons or tips that you learned, let's say, while you were writing your first one that then helped you write the second and the third and the fourth and the fifth. Yeah. So so I'll try not to date myself too much, but that first book came out in 1988. Okay. Process for publishing in 1988 was a lot different than it is now.

Sure. Most books at that time were produced by the traditional publishers, McGraw Hill, John Wiley. John Wiley distributed my book in The US, but it was actually published by Longman Scientific and Technical, which was a European English firm. But these were all, very established companies, and they had a very explicit process that that they guided me through. And, you know, I would write chapters, send them off, and they would have an editor review them and tell me, what they thought I should change or questions about what was I meaning here.

And so I was getting a lot of feedback. Okay. I didn't necessarily listen to all that feedback because it was my book, not the editor's book. But, but but, there there was a lot to learn with that process, which is a lot different now because most books aren't published by the big big five publishers anymore. They're published by smaller publishers, like my second and third book are were published by, Wilderness Press, which is a fairly popular, producer of outdoor related books.

But the process was simpler then. They didn't go go through a lot of editing, and the one round of editing that they did after I wrote the manuscript was done by an editor that I thought didn't really know what she was doing very well, so I didn't pay much much attention to that. But the key is you have to have a good vision for what you want this book to be and and then move forward with that despite what other people are telling you. And maybe the best way to just explain that is my most recent book, winning through innovation, which I have right here. I there are a ton of books out there already on innovation, and so my question to myself was, how do I make mine different?

And, the thing is that most of the books that are out there are written by consultants or, university professors that have given a lot of coaching to companies, but have never really led innovative projects themselves. And so I wanted my book to focus on what it's like to really lead innovative projects, what it all the things that you don't think of when you're first trying to do, this innovative project. And and so one of the examples, for example, of a big innovation that I did at HP, was in the, test and measurement business. We introduced a brand new kind of an oscilloscope. And we were not the market leader in oscilloscopes at that time, and, a company called Tektronix was the market leader in oscilloscopes.

And so we had this great idea for a new, product that was gonna take us two years to develop, and we didn't want Tektronix to find out anything about this. So, you know, while we were out talking to customers to try to find out what they really needed, we needed to make sure that Tek didn't didn't hear what we were doing. So we did two things. First of all, I invented what was basically a Phantom product that wasn't a very good product, but it was something that allowed us to go out and talk to customers. And if Tektronix heard about that product, they'd just laugh and say, that that's nothing we have to worry about.

But going out there with that Phantom product allowed us to find out what customers really wanted so that when we introduced the big product it was really right on, and Tektronix was completely surprised. It took them six years to come out with a, a competitive product, and by then, we were the market leader. So these are the kind of things that most books about innovation aren't gonna share with you because the the consultant doesn't go through that level of detail with the, the the project team. And I've spelled out another thing that I did was how we influenced an entire industry, actually, with the same product. This was a product that was, designed to, serve the needs of a specific, the the telecommunications fiber optic telecommunications industry, and they were just developing, industry specifications for for what the, the products needed to do to meet the the requirements.

And so I got myself named as the, the committee leader for writing one of the specifications for that industry. And and I wrote it in a way that Tektronix was happy with because it allowed them to be, to meet the requirements of my spec. But the product that we introduced was so much better than the spec that, we we captured the market. And if I had written the spec so that only the HP mark product, met the spec, that would have signaled Tektronix that we were doing something a lot better, and they would have immediately, done their own new product introduction. So, again, these are the kind of things that innovators don't typically think about that, that really make a difference for how you can be innovative and and what it takes to be innovative.

I love it. Just a creative mindset to think about different ways of trying to approach you know, we're all trying to move our businesses ahead and kind of get ahead and take a market leadership position. But, you know, sometimes that can be really challenging. So I love that those thoughts there. I guess, Steve, just to kinda wrap up our conversation today, and by the way, for our audience, we're gonna have links to Steve, to his bio sorry, to his, online presence as well as to his books in the show notes.

So you can definitely check them out there. Just to kinda wrap up today's conversation and, you know, any kind of parting thoughts, I I've loved hearing about kind of the lessons learned on the book writing side. One kind of final question on that side, and then I've got one more question on innovation to kinda wrap things up. Was it worth it going through the hours that it took and the research and the diligence and the discipline that you must have had to go through those books? Were they, like were they worth it as a labor of love, or were they worth it as a thing that you, you know, really used as a as a way to teach yourself or to teach others around you or just, like, worth it overall?

So, yeah, it varies by book, but, you're not generally going to make a ton of money in book sales, but it can open the door for you in ways that, that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. So my first book on surface mount technology, I became an industry expert as a result of that book, and I got invited to all sorts of events. I was was, lead speakers in conferences. Companies would invite me in to take a look at their internal surface mount manufacturing, so that I could give them my feedback on what I thought about it. And one of those companies was Tektronix, our, our competitor who invited me in to see their processing line even they know they knew I was with a competitor, but they wanted to get my, my thoughts on, on whether they were doing it right.

And and I was happy to tell them what I thought. But, it's that kind of thing for the business world that, is even really more more powerful than the income from the book itself. In the outdoor world, those kind of books, I figure I probably made about a dollar an hour on on book sales for the the amount of time I put writing into it. But but I was gonna go out in the desert anyway, and so I might as well generate some some revenue as a result of that. And I I could write the business trip a trip off as a business expense, at least part of it.

That is a nice little tip there is, writing off, some of your leisure travels as a business trip. Awesome. And then on innovation, if you're you know, if I think about our audience today as being largely cybersecurity practitioners at various sizes of organizations, some are at big companies, some are at little companies, if you could leave them with a couple of last thoughts about, like, hey. What role does cybersecurity play in the innovation that an organization needs right now? And what is a very, very fast moving technology landscape?

What are some of those thoughts that you would share with them? Yeah. So innovation and cybersecurity need to play together, but innovation in cybersecurity needs to be done carefully. Okay. And what I mean there is you need to create an environment separate from your production environment to where you can do the testing and make sure that that things are working before you roll it out.

And that's maybe more of a challenge in a large corporation, because the c suite is beholden to investors who wanna see them make, predicted revenues and profits every month. And if you've got a any kind of innovation, but we'll talk about cybersecurity innovation going on that is gonna take you six months or a year to roll out, there's gonna be a lot of pressure from the c suite saying we gotta meet our numbers this month. So get that thing out into the, the production environment sooner than you're planning. And the cybersecurity professionals have got to really resist that kind of pressure to to make sure that, you know, it's never gonna be perfect when you roll it out. But cybersecurity is not something where I would say move fast and break things.

Right. That's that works in some areas, but, like, I'd never wanna fly on an airplane that the manufacturer took that kind of strategy. Approach. Yeah. Fair enough.

Well, Stephen Hitch, thank you so much for taking the time to join us today on on modern cyber. I've really enjoyed the conversation. We've ranged across, I'd say, three key very interesting topics that we don't get a lot of opportunity to discuss here on the show. So it's been a real pleasure to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for coming on Modern Cyber.

Thank you, Jeremy. Awesome. And to our audience, stay tuned for the next episode. And just as a reminder, if you or someone you know is interested in coming on to talk about the worst breach that you've ever experienced, we still have slots on our data breach series, and, please join us for the next episode. Bye bye.